Ramblings of a Restless Mind

15 Ramblings
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Jen: [00:00:00] deja had a, she has a bionic foot now. She had a, you have new joints in my right foot. Yep. Woo whoop. Which unfortunately that meant that she could not step foot ha in the hot yoga studio so mean, I got everyone

I'm telling you, every time I hear Joe's voice say, let's get ready to ramble. I'm in a boxing rink, just ready to yell it. I'm just ready to [00:01:00] ramble. I just. Picture Joe in a

DeJah: tuxedo with some

Jen: slick backed hair. Didn't, I didn't know where that was gonna go. When you said you just pictured Joe in,

DeJah: we were, we were talking about nude beaches at our previous episode.

Sorry. We were so, I mean it's, it's understandable

Jen: that you could think I was,

DeJah: and it's a dirty mind

Jen: now that I think about it. It's a bit of a teaser because by the time all these episodes drop, which we've let people behind the curtain on how batch recording works. Mm-hmm. It's good. We will have been to our trip on our trip and back for quite some time, which is

DeJah: why I don't, I don't feel unsafe talking about.

Right. We'll already have returned. So how was your guys' vacation?

Joe: Oh

DeJah: my

Joe: gosh. I

DeJah: rested. Oh good.

Jen: Daja got so sunburned.

DeJah: Standard up. Standard

Jen: up. Yeah. No, listen. So we, a couple years ago we went to Greece together. That's actually where we kind of became life wives. Yes. I think. Yes. And bless her sweet soul.

This is an audio only podcast, so you can't see Deja Yes. And she doesn't exist on social media. Imagine in complete absence of [00:02:00] melanin Yes.

DeJah: If

Jen: Casper

DeJah: were an actual human being,

Jen: I guess you can see a little bit our graphic. Yeah. That's, that's the rare appearance of daja.

You'll see body,

DeJah: ethereal and transparent. Yeah.

Jen: So, and she, listen, she had the long sleeve like sun shirts on. She had all kinds of sunscreen hat things, but there was kayaking was part of this, this retreat that we did in Greece and so water. It was getting on her hands from the paddle and like in the water and everything, and so it rubbed the sunscreen off and y'all, her, her tops of her hands were literally like purple.

They were so sunburnt and swollen. My skin ended up like that too. Yeah, I felt so ta terrible for you. Yeah, but hey, but you just drank Uzo blacked out and took it like a champ. So,

DeJah: so like juice Juice

Jen: stays Tuesday. Uzo.

Oh man. All right. Well, yeah, so that's how that was. Yes. Welcome to my Muppet hands and feet episode.

You just never know. Also bourbon is [00:03:00] delicious. I know. We, we generally kind of talk about what we're sipping on.

DeJah: I love scotch. SCO is scotch

Jen: and, uh, so we, I am sipping on some four roses, small batch four roses is my go-to. And per usual, man, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Deja, what are you sipping on?

That would be a bold rock ci. Listen. If it works, don't change it. That's right. Sorry. So we have a guest today and we are pretty stoked. That's right. We're not alone. Yeah.

David: Do I get to use the monster voice the whole time? Can you bring that back? Can that be just do the whole podcast that way.

Jen: Are you turning the monster voice

David: I need to figure out how to do this. Split with clients on my telehealth session. Be like always.

Jen: Wow. Okay. Well I'm gonna have nightmares tonight. Thank you for that.

So the guest doesn't actually have that voice usually, but this the topic we're talking about, I'm actually so stoked to bring, I think there needs to be so much more light brought to this and people educated about this teaser. It looks like cliffhanger getting into [00:04:00] it. And this came about because I think Deja and I have spoken before, we are avid yogis.

Yep. We love some yoga and I was talking to a friend, a different friend who has kind of recently started her journey with yoga and she's kind of had a life transformation from work to full-time mom life and all this kinds of stuff, and she was. Talking about yoga. And she was like, but have you ever cried on your yoga mat?

I was, oh yeah. I was like, oh girl. Oh yeah. That his testing says, captured some tears for sure. And sweat. And and so she was like, what? And I was like, oh, I actually learned about this from somebody. And funny enough, a couple of episodes we talked about our experiences with the online dating. And I love that we have bu Right. I love that we've had this opportunity because we had some not so great things to say about online dating as well as just some truths and realities of it. But this particular guest I met on bubble on an online date we went a couple of dates. So his name is David.

Welcome, David.

David: It's good to, good to be with you again. Where's the applause,

Jen: Joe? Come on.

David: Slow [00:05:00] on the APA draw. It's the first time on a podcast. Like I wouldn't have noticed that it was missing, but thank you for including that. Of

Jen: course. So yeah, so David and I met via Bumble, so thanks for that. But I think it's a it's a testament to a positive side of Bumble that it doesn't have to all be just nasty and ghosting and mm-hmm.

Just shitty people that you're, you're meeting along the way. 'Cause you're not a shitty person. So thanks for that. Aw,

David: thanks. I don't know if it's like the highest compliment, but you're not a shitty person either. Thank you. You're not, you're not a terrible, no. I did, so for, for the record, I mentioned this before we started that was absolutely the first episode that I listened to when you were like, on Instagram, you're like, Hey, do you wanna be on this podcast?

I was like, mm, hold on. You know, I didn't think about

Jen: the timing of that, but that's fair. That's fair.

David: But no, it, it, it's, you are one of the, the people who really did, Hey. It was wonderful to meet you, da da da. Great. And this isn't quite a, kind of situation. I think that there's a lot of just basic human interaction maybe that we're losing a little bit as [00:06:00] kind of our personas become a little bit more digitized.

Mm-hmm. That sort of, you know, the person is just kind of the, the demographics that you see on a, a screen or whatever. Yeah. And, and being able to like, really engage at a human level with someone's a good thing.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. And we, we connected on Instagram too as we were getting to know each other.

Uh, both of, I think of both of our profiles were public and I some just, like, I don't, I don't care. Like, if I was that worried about it, it would be private or, or whatever. And we've stayed. Or you'd be like me living under a rock. We, we need to have those. This world too. I have no, I don't to any social media.

I have nothing to None. Yeah. Yeah. None. I have gone so far as if there is something like an Instagram reel that I want her to see so bad and I send it to her, but it's a private account, she can't see it. Oh. Then I will screen record. Like I want her to see it that bad, that I'll screen record it on my phone and send it to her.

I deeply appreciate

DeJah: all of the extra effort to keep

David: my Luddite ass in the loop. But you know what, like when AI takes over though, you are gonna be one of the ones that survives. So you're the resistance. I'm pretty much You're said you notice, remember that? Yes. That's the plot. The plot of my movie.[00:07:00]

Remember that? Like the Matrix And he was like, it was, he was the first of us that unplugged. You're gonna be the one unplugging people. That's, yeah. Deia, Deba, Deba.

Jen: Yes. We, we, I'm so, so surprised. You just said your first and last name. We have talked about this actually. I think we had a very lengthy, not sober conversation around a zombie apocalypse situation.

Mm-hmm. And we determined that we could survive together, but I don't remember if there was anything I was contributing to our survival other than. Human interaction. I'm dying. 'cause

DeJah: I actually don't remember what you were gonna contribute. I'm doing all the things.

Jen: A safe space without judgment.

DeJah: Yes. You, you just, you know, just keep following me around.

Whispering, encouragement as I drag in all the wood. Build the structures, light the fires. Yes. Pump the food. Find the fresh water. Listen, we listen, we don't judge. You know what? You're gonna, you're gonna cut up all those things that I [00:08:00] kill. That's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna make you do it.

Jen: When you say cut up, do you mean cut up the actual, this dark animal or, okay.

DeJah: You know what, you can cut the vegetables. Yes.

Jen: Along the way, along the way I can also boil water. Yes. Sweet. So be impressed.

Oh, I don't know how hard stuff I, on a day-to day basis actually I'm just a very basic, simple human being. Then I have my go-to, I had like a BLT for lunch today. It's super simple. Oh, that sounds really good. It was really good. Yeah. No, I'm

DeJah: craving lt. How about you, man? We just totally abso We had a guest.

We did have a guest. We did David, us.

Jen: Oh man. Okay. We're gonna, we're gonna bring it back. Okay. So David and I've, do you go by David or Dave or

David: both? I, either one. So weirdly I've gone by both and so I can kind of tell what, like when I met people by what they call me. So you can call me whatever you want.

Okay.

DeJah: David. [00:09:00]

David: David. Hey David. Ken. Hey you. Whatever. I dunno.

Jen: Hey bitch.

David: There you go.

Jen: A little bit about David, except for how he and I met is that you are a mental health counselor, which I'm gonna put a period there for a moment because I love having a male that is a mental health provider to speak on this and to just, you know, have a platform to say very

DeJah: few of you naturally in the wild.

Jen: Yes, Eric? Yes.

So thank you for your service. You're also the military so your mental health prov counselor in a private practice with extensive training in existential humanistic therapy and somatic therapy, which we will get to more of in just a moment. You have a private practice here in Fuqua Arena, North Carolina.

You are a US Army veteran of 21 years. So legit. Thank you for your service. Thank you. Uh, you love Olympic weightlifting, spending time outdoors, playing the [00:10:00] bass, guitar, celebrity bass, and spend as much time as possible wrangling a dog and a 5-year-old. So, wow. You do a lot of things. I do a lot of things.

David: Yeah. Well, you put it on paper. Try. I try. I looked at that and I was like, you know, it's okay to feel exhausted all the time. Yeah. It's like I understand this now.

Jen: So the US Army. Experience to mental health counselor. Walk us through that, that journey.

David: Oh, so that was, that was actually a, a pretty like, windy road.

And it wasn't, it wasn't super linear when I was in, there was a period I was, I was very religious and actually wanted to be clergy after I got off, uh, active duty through a couple of circumstances that ended up not panning out. But I was in good company because a lot of humanistic therapists Carl Rogers, I believe R May all started out kind of wanting to go that route and then ended up being therapists.

So ended up in grad school, my [00:11:00] first semester of grad school when I was in the military. I'd, uh, taught military resilience and I'd mentioned it like in my little class intro or whatever. And you know, one of my professors was like, oh, you're under resilience. My wife, you know, and I own this center in Chapel Hill, blah, blah, blah.

And he's the one that got me into, uh, somatic therapy and like body oriented work. I got, handed me off Vander K's, the body Keeps the score, and Peter Levine and everything and, and got started there that way. So

DeJah: I'm curious, what was your MOSI

David: was a 25 Charlie, I was a radio guy. Got it. Awesome.

Awesome. It was old enough to have been a 31 Charlie when I, when I got in and they changed the, the designations, but yeah. Oh, cool. Cool.

Jen: Very cool. So that, that got you to the mental health space and then obviously kinda led into talking about resilience, then getting into the, the existential humanistic therapy and somatic therapy.

So for those of us, like me that don't, you actually educated me quite a bit on the somatic therapy part of it. Mm-hmm. So, but for all of our listeners explain. To the extent that we will understand it, [00:12:00] existential humanistic therapy, because that sounds like what and then also somatic therapy.

Explain what that is.

David: I would say existential humanistic therapy primarily deals with the ridiculousness of being human, quite frankly. If I had to like sum the whole thing up. A lot of modern therapies are aimed at for good reasons. Symptom reduction. Like what, what kind of change can we measure in the, the process?

There's kind of a, a category of therapies that we might call depth therapies that includes things like psychodynamic and analytic, like Jungian and, and Freud. And that includes existential humanistic, where the goal of the therapy isn't so much symptom reduction, it's really coming to terms with ourselves, self-awareness, self-acceptance and kind of integration of, of all the stuff maybe that we get shut off from.

What makes our kind of camp unique is that it emphasizes the therapeutic relationship in like the change process.

DeJah: So you're an enabler of self-actualization? Kind of, yeah.

David: In fact, the self-actualization, the term [00:13:00] self-actualization came from the, the humanistic therapy movement. So, yeah. Cool. As one somatic teacher that I had, layle keen put it, we sit with people while they heal.

We don't fix them. Right. We don't figure them out. We just sit with people while they heal.

DeJah: That's, yeah. You have to heal yourself. You can't expect someone else to do it, which is a misnomer going into therapy. A lot of people set themselves up with unrealistic expectations

David: or they come in and they're like, alright, tell me what screwed up about me and how to fix it.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. They want to be quick fix.

David: Yeah.

Jen: That's not how it works. Do you think in, in the, as you couched it, like the, the modern therapy world that. Uh, what we think we, you know, we hear a lot of all the terms, you know, CBT and like all these different modalities of, of, of therapy, I guess focuses or, and you probably know much better words to couch those as but do you think that any of this, like the human, the existential humanistic therapy that any of that kind of naturally happens or with therapists or, or do you truly have to be like, I mean, specially trained or educated on it?

David: Sure. [00:14:00] So in the middle of last century when this wave kind of hit its peak or, or came about here, it certainly left its mark on the field. There are people that use a lot of language, like in grad school and in therapy trainings about things like the importance of, you know, empathy and positive regard and authenticity.

And certainly there's been a lot of research on the importance of the therapeutic relationship in the therapeutic process. So it's definitely left its mark on the field and I would say to some extent. Existential humanistic therapy isn't so much a different animal from all these other, other animals that are out there, CBT and psychodynamic and feminist therapy and reality therapy and all these other things.

It's kind of the essentials boiled down with the emphasis just being on that like human interaction, right? Like how the, the questions that are always going through my mind as a therapist in, in that capacity are how is this person relating to themselves and how is that showing up and how they're relating to [00:15:00] me?

DeJah: Which makes a lot of sense when you're specifically focused around trauma. That

David: those two, I, I find these two go together really, really, really well. Humanistic therapy and, and somatic therapy. Mm-hmm. Which, that's kind of, uh, a lot of how somatic therapy as a field kind of took off in the last couple decades.

Mm-hmm. Was a lot of the research on trauma in our bodies and our nervous system.

Jen: Yeah. So how does. How does that show up? Like different ways? 'cause I think we might hear things, see things, you know, I mean, my algorithm on Instagram's fucked, like I see things like that all the time of like, you know, all these different somatic things.

So how does different ways that that shows up for people, they might not even recognize that they're, they're experiencing that.

David: So how, like, how is the, the trauma, how are the body's responses showing up in like mm-hmm. Mental health challenges? Mm-hmm. So a lot of things, and I, I would say. Actually, let me pull back here a second, right?

I say,

Jen: is this a disclaimer? Cut back happened.

David: Hold on, hold on, hold on. I need to start. I need to start a little farther back. We're integrated beings, [00:16:00] right? Like we don't exist in these neat little compartments of my emotions are here and my thoughts are here, and my body is here. The whole thing's interacting.

DeJah: Thank you. Inside out. Yeah. So, okay.

David: The number one movie that I reference with clients, especially teaching them about things like plurality of emotion. I'm like, have you seen Inside Out go watch it this weekend. Yeah. So good. Because that they such a good job of explaining certain concepts

DeJah: and also taking the shame away from having multiple emotions.

There is a cultural dynamic of of that. There's more than just anger.

David: Yeah.

DeJah: Yeah.

David: Well think about the language we, we use with our emotions. Right. How do you feel? Good or bad? There's this binary, this dichotomy of like, I'm either here or I'm here.

Jen: Right. When I introduced anxiety in the second one, I was just like, I feel so seen.

Also, it happens way too early in life.

David: Yeah.

Jen: But, sorry, we kind of went off track. We're rambling. Yeah.

David: It's name of the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So we kind of, you know, we're right on track. Right. But like, so how does that show up in the body? How do I notice [00:17:00] that? One is, there are a lot of things where I'm trying to get not get hoity-toity right now.

There are times where our experiences that we label as anxiety, or that we label as just the way our bodies respond to, to stress over time have their roots in maybe ways that our body had to adapt. To previous conditions that could have been a very severe, singular event. That could have been a prolonged period of time.

That could be something like a social condition or a familial condition, something that's not really a one-time incident. But is. Always present for us. So for example, if my sense of being in my world and my community is that I always have to be on my guard because any moment something could erupt or I could be in danger, even if that's not like a cognitive thought, that little 8-year-old me is wandering around thinking there's this awareness that in my environment, like I can't always completely [00:18:00] settle.

Mm-hmm. There's this, and we can get in as far into all the hoity-toity as you want. There's this part of our nervous system called our autonomic nervous system, keeps us alive, does cool things for us and it stays kind of energized and ready to respond all the time. And when that happens over time and it doesn't ever get a chance to completely settle we, we develop physical patterns and emotional patterns and sometimes thought patterns that kind of mirror or stay in step with that.

And you can tell when someone comes in and they sit down in their chair and they're like, our folks can't see this, but Right. Yeah. And they levitate. If you've ever seen someone levitate in their chair, like you've watched someone who can't fully like, relax and settle, right? If you've ever felt yourself fully settle into a chair, like really, you're like, oh, gravity, that's fantastic, right?

Yeah. That exists. Our bodies are always kind of, conveying the state that's going on internally in that regard. So how does it show up in session? A little bit of, it's like learning a new language. You just learn to kind of track what somebody's [00:19:00] body is doing in the moment from the perspective of the person who's not sure.

How much of their problem is related to trauma? How much somatic stuff's going on Are my headaches because of this thing from my childhood or not? Like, you don't have to know that to come in and just sit down with someone and be like, here are the things. You know, that's, that's our responsibility.

Jen: Maybe we should take a step back too, just like this, like somatically breaking that down. When you, when you just say like, somatic therapy, obviously we're talking about in the body, but do you mean physically something is showing up in the body That is mm-hmm. So like breaking that down for our, for us and our audience as well.

David: I mentioned our auto, our autonomic nervous system earlier. There's a part of our nervous system that's just going all the time that keeps us alive.

It's right now it's keeping your heart beating, making sure your pupils are dilated to the amount of light that's available. It's causing the smooth muscle tissue around your intestines to contract and relax, keeping your digestion going. It also is responsible for stuff that keeps you [00:20:00] alive, right?

If we were to walk out into the lobby right now and there was a bear there you don't need like in that moment from a survival perspective to do things like figure out what kind of bear is it? Is that a grizzly? Right? Like how did it get here? Did someone leave the door open? Not Or did I figure out how I'm not, you know what my

DeJah: very first thought was, there's no talent.

I

David: wonder

DeJah: if I could give it a hug,

David: if not friend. Why? Friend shaped answer is no daja, you cannot daja getting, I'm gonna run away.

DeJah: Yes. Yeah.

David: Now, but okay. Right. So, but we, we don't need that, like those parts of our brain in that moment. Right? The front juicy part of our brain that develops in our mid twenties finishes developing rather in our, our mid twenties called our prefrontal cortex that does all our good slow thinking like logic and philosophy and all of that stuff.

DeJah: You need your ID lizard to run like a motherfucker. Yes you do.

David: You need that back part by the base, your skull, that part that's like, it's a bear. [00:21:00] And in that moment, your autonomic nervous system. Speeds up your heart rate, get your lungs going, pumping oxygen into your blood that moves away from your sex and digestive organs into your limbs so that you can do something.

It mobilizes energy in the body for action.

DeJah: It's fascinating. Your digestion stops, right? Your body will redistribute all of your energy to your muscles, to your limbs to run. Mm-hmm. Literally, you're all, everything going on inside halts except for your lung in heart, you don't need that. Yo it's fascinating.

You use exactly what you mean, how fascinating, how fast it distributes.

David: You know, you think about, so stories for example, of like a mom that like lifted a car off her baby. Mm-hmm. And you might think to yourself like, she's not that big. Like physically, there's not that much glycogen in her muscle.

Bellies. Like, you're like, that's not glycogen. Our sympathetic nervous system will mobilize that much energy that quickly. Yep. I dunno how long I can nerd out on the, the subject of our nervous systems, but Right. So, so this part of us is designed to. Work very quickly and then resolve itself. Mm-hmm.

That energy goes somewhere. [00:22:00] There's a, a term I love. The term is prompting. Prompting is the celebratory discharge of excess sympathetic energy after an animal escapes an attack. So the Impala gets, oh, so when I leave, a bad date gets away. Yes, correct. Noted. When you leave a bad date and you find yourself jumping in celebration, that's prompting.

Now I know

DeJah: I'm gonna text. Thank you. You, so

Jen: I'm gonna text you next on Deia. I'm gonna be like, I'm prompting.

DeJah: Okay. We have to make our own little individual plunking memes. There you go. That's

Jen: another T-shirt. Yes. So,

David: so anyway, that's kind of in a nutshell, right? So what happens is in the last several decades, there's been a lot of research showing how these different systems in our bodies are connected to things we've historically just thought of as like depression or anxiety or, oh, it's so weird.

Most people who have PTSD also end up with right, really acute, long-term anxiety or depression. And we're starting to see how [00:23:00] much this is actually in our bodies as well. And like I mentioned earlier, we're integrated, right? So it's not like there's these neat little boxes. Mm-hmm. So when we show up, we're not always thinking, Hey, there's a whole lump of stuff that I'm pretty sure is connected to this, you know, thing that's been in my world since I was eight, where we are just showing up and we may not even connect the dots and go, wait, so.

That's actually because I always just thought that, you know, I was a, a naturally stressful person. Mm-hmm. Or I, I just can't sleep well, you know? Right. But so that's kind of the, where somatic therapy breaks down and there's a, a whole bunch of different like veins that that's broken into in the last couple years.

Jen: How do you as a somatic therapist, and you know, the existential humanistic part of it as well, they get. How do you help someone with the body response?

Like the somatic responses that they're having from things that Yeah, especially they don't even recognize. Yeah. That that's what, that's what's going on.

David: Well, there's a, there's a certain amount of my work going in that's just education, that's just [00:24:00] talking with people and, and like when I do an intake, I'll be like, here are the types of therapies that I'm trained in.

Here's what our work could look like together. Your, you know, this is a team effort, so if something works for you or doesn't work for you, and just bringing that and saying, Hey, so the last couple decades, a lot of research has shown us that sometimes when we go through really hard events, either brief, very intense ones or maybe prolonged ones, that, that don't seem like a single incident.

It has impacts on our body. And as for what that looks like in session so the, the type I'm trained in, which is called Somatic Experiencing, it's a a three year kind of program and you're getting your own sessions, doing your own work and, and getting consultation while you do this. And, as you're, you're going through it there's, it, there are other professions doing this.

So like there are body workers doing this, there are massage therapists, there are physical therapists. I went through my, uh, cohort with a dentist weirdly, uh, that was learning this and everyone, it's a toolkit, not a programmatic therapy. Mm-hmm. So everyone's kind of gonna have their own way of, [00:25:00] of pulling together the tools that work for them and their clients.

Jen: So I, I feel like I'm berating him with questions. I, I, I will pause to you opportunity. I, I could just sit over here and just

DeJah: sing the praises of what you do. In my, no, my lifelong therapy journey and where I'm at and the, I had just started with a newer, new therapist not too long ago, and the phase that I'm at is very, very scientifically somatically designed.

Mm-hmm. Like it is, I'm at that self-actualized point of, this happens. I feel this. Mm-hmm. I understand why I know what's going on. Yeah. Right. Like, I've known myself and my therapist has helped me get there. Everyone should just push the mic at me, giving hand feelings and moving around a lot. But it has sincerely mattered.

Yeah. It has sincerely mattered in allowing me control not only of my emotions, but also of my therapeutic journey as well. Yeah. Right. So that we can essentially journal my way through [00:26:00] my understanding my body. And I am one of those people. Yeah. I run at like. Fight or flight, but I'm at fight and I have always been my, my whole life I'm conditioned that way.

Yeah. And so to be able to deescalate myself Yeah. Right. And to break down that it's not only, it's, it's not me, it's me. Yeah. It's not me. It's Right. And they give yourself grace that the conditioning Yeah. That you've had for a lifetime Yeah. Is part of you. Yeah. But you now can control that aspect of you.

So yeah. Kudos insert clapping.

Joe: but here's

clapping too late. Okay. That was awesome.

Jen: That was some, that was some pitiful clapping as well.

Oh, that was labeled

Joe: passive aggressive clapping. Yes. That's my bad. That was like,

Jen: why are you even clapping? No, and I agree. And I think too, like with, with my, since we're being open and ful Yes. With my therapeutic journey as well, I'm a. I digest things and move through things when I understand why.

DeJah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And so

Jen: when [00:27:00] my, you know, I think it can be such a pain in the ass to have to switch therapist but sometimes it's a very good idea whether it's forced upon, 'cause your therapist moves or whatever the case may be. Like it also presents an opportunity, right? Mm-hmm. And I, and I think with my most recent therapist, she really took the time to explain to me, I went in for a very pointed reason.

And, and man, not even gonna get into all that, but she took the time to explain to me like what was literally happening. Mm-hmm. Because it was PTs D related. And so, yeah, explain to me what was happening in my brain from an anatomical perspective. And I was just like. That makes so much sense. And for whatever reason that really clicked with me of like how my body was actually responding, like that.

This isn't just something to your point of saying how we're not, you know, compartmentalized and are the different parts of us understanding the physical part, it's also validating and that like it's not just a psychological thing that's like abstract thing that we have to try to understand and change.

David: Yeah. We moralize mental illness and mental health challenges a lot in our language. Mm-hmm. Right? Like if I, if I were walking down the street and you overheard me being like, oh yeah, [00:28:00] that's Jen, she's crazy. You probably wouldn't think he's overwrought with you know, emotion sympathy for this woman and compassion for her suffering and what, no, that's a judgment, right?

Yeah, right. You know, we, we, we very much like moralize mental illness issues and we don't moralize physical illness issues. So when people have a sense that, oh, this thing isn't, like, there's something fundamentally wrong with me, I'm not like flawed, right? This is just adaptations sometimes in the hardware, right?

Mm-hmm.

DeJah: In my, in my personal opinion, in my own personal journey, I'm very direct about this. I, my. Childhood separation from religion and existentialism that mm-hmm. My mind is separate from my body. Yeah. Helped when I realigned that no, my brain, where my thoughts come from is inside my brain case. Mm-hmm.

And is part and can break just like everything else up in there. Really helped me love myself more.

David: Isn't it a weird, weird [00:29:00] thing that the like squishy break gray part of our meat suit inside the skull Yeah. Gets to tell us that the rest of the meat suit is like somehow lesser or, but yet

DeJah: the concept of that it's separate and Yeah.

It's just true for insurance. It's fascinating. It's, you know, I know that's a whole other Well that's what I'm saying, like again, you're talking about we're continuing to moralize it mm-hmm. By, in our, in our health standards. Mm-hmm. Keeping it separate. Yeah. But of course we fucking do that with teeth too.

So you know what, goddamnit egg eyes. Yeah. Oh goodness. Old lady fist at healthcare in America.

David: That's a whole other episode. Healthcare. Yeah. Right?

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So if we're understanding these things are, are happening in our body Yeah. Along with our minds. So like my friend who was having the experience of starting her yoga journey and then finding herself becoming emotional on her mat.

Yeah. Like. Why,

DeJah: People, if you don't do yoga, there is a very [00:30:00] specific mantra of what happens on your mat.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Stays on your mat. Mm-hmm. It's a safe place. Yeah. So it's, you know, the practice of yoga itself is very conducive to them. All that, but that mindfulness and I think then Yeah. To what you're talking about is a whole se So I'm gonna segue you into explaining why you then cry in that space.

Yeah. Right. Okay.

David: So, so I, I kind of wanna caveat this a little bit and just put something out here, up front. Yoga can be very helpful mm-hmm. For working through trauma. Yoga is known to be the, there are a lot of somatic therapists who are also yoga instructors. Mm-hmm. That said. If you're going to explore and do your own trauma work with a yoga instructor, I, I would emphasize finding one who's trauma informed.

DeJah: Oh sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because

David: depending on the nature of the trauma and what you're doing in the yoga session, that can go poorly.

DeJah: Yeah. Oh yeah. That said, and you can get individualized sessions. Yes. Yes. Okay. So a hundred percent available. We're not talking about, you're not talking about gonna a class.

No. This [00:31:00] is an option. Yeah. Yes. This is real. I've done it. You can work. It's fantastic. I like, Nope, I just want you to help me work on this area. Mm-hmm. And just like massage therapist too. Mm-hmm. A lymphatic release,

Jen: yeah,

DeJah: yeah.

Jen: But it, like, in my experience and in my friend's experience, this was just unexpected.

Like, you just show up, you go to a class, next thing you know, you're just like, tears screaming. You're like, what the just I was just dying in hot yoga. Now I'm crying. What is going on here? Yeah. Yeah. So what's going on there, David? Why am I

DeJah: weeping?

David: By the way, am I billing you both individually for this?

Are we, we gave you free bourbon. Come on. Do you take a I now? So Talking about non pathologizing stances and how we understand mental health challenges, mental illness, human beings are incredibly adaptive, and thank goodness we are

Jen: Yeah.

David: In, in every way, emotionally, physiologically, behaviorally, we adapt to the very best way that we can to the circumstances before us, with the resources that [00:32:00] are available to us, right? That includes how much we know. It, that includes social resources, that includes, right, like we do the best we can and we adapt.

Sometimes those adaptations later on cause us problems.

And those can be some of those things that we may not always even recognize are related to trauma. Now, that said one of the ways that we adapt to trauma oftentimes is disconnecting from what feels unsafe or too overwhelmingly, just too much to handle.

If that fight or flight sense in my body of being constantly like on alert is overwhelming and flooding and feels really unsafe, I. I dissociate from it. I can find myself to, like we were talking about the squishy gray part of my meat soup. Mm-hmm. And this is where you get people who come into offices like mine and you start to talk to 'em about their bodies and they just kinda look at you like body.

DeJah: Yeah, yeah. Ask them,

David: What are you noticing right now? Like, as we're talking about this, I noticed they list off 18 thoughts that they're having, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's the way [00:33:00] we adapt. That's how we get through the stuff we have to get through. But sometimes when we're in a situation, we start to connect with our body, especially if it feels good.

It feels safe. Hopefully your yoga feels safe. Mm-hmm. Yes. Hopefully. Well, it may not feel good, but that depends on how long you'd be doing it. Mother do it hurts is so good kind of thing.

Sometimes it's a good, good, sometimes it's, this is building character good. That's right. That's right. It's good. And, and what can happen is we start to get in contact with some of that stuff.

DeJah: Mm-hmm.

David: That's been in there and it can be a little bit cathartic. Now somatic therapies don't generally chase catharsis.

In fact, the one that I'm trained in is, is very adamant about not doing that. But that doesn't mean those big releases don't happen. And sometimes when we kind of do a little bit of the work and we weren't planning on it mm-hmm. We go to a good yoga session. Yeah. And for whatever reason that other end of the autonomic nervous system, that parasympathetic nervous system, that calms me down afterwards.

Like I go, I escape the cheetah and I [00:34:00] eat a big meal and I fall into a food coma. Parasympathetic. Right? Yep. And we, we settle into that space, we connect with our bodies and stuff comes up. Hmm. And sometimes stuff that we weren't expecting, [00:35:00] I'm gonna put you on blast a little bit.

Jen: Not, not too deeply. But recently, uh, deja had a, she has a bionic foot now. She had a, you have new joints in my right foot. Yep. Woo whoop. Which unfortunately that meant that she could not step foot ha in the

so mean, I got everyone in the hot yoga studio for. Six, about six weeks ish. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. So, and bless her, like my heart hurt for her because once you get into a routine of mm-hmm. Hot yoga or regular yoga hot yoga isn't just another level of torture. Yes. But we, we both do hot yoga and whenever you're in a routine of it, you come to, I mean, crave it, right?

Yes. Not just for the physical benefits of it, the mental, but for the medical release of the release. Hundred percent. Just body tension of being tight from sitting at a desk all day, as well as like the emotional release of things because you do, when you get into a [00:36:00] routine with it. You do recognize, it's like you step into that studio and you recognize, this is my map, this is a safe place.

Yep. For me to be who I am, I'm not thinking about what just happened or what's about to happen this hour or 75 minutes if you're like, torture is is dedicated just to me, just to be here. Yeah. And in my body. And it can have so many benefits beyond just the pinnacle, pinnacle, the physical part of it.

For me it's been a huge, like confidence for me in my own physical body as well and the way that I carry myself. But all that has say there's the mental health part of it too, of just releasing stress and providing that, that space. Space. Well just in the chemical release. Yes. Mm-hmm. I was.

DeJah: Having withdrawals.

Yeah. Like literal

Jen: cortisone, like withdrawals, right? Like you go from working all, all the time. And then, you know, and she, something had happened and, and she got kind of worked up about things and then she came back and like apologized and it wasn't even something at me and I was just like, buddy, there's no read for you to apologize, first of all, like, I love you, all of you.

Drop it off. Yeah. [00:37:00] I was like you, you are safe to be who are you are in every version that you are. But I was like, also, you haven't been to yoga in a month. Like when you're used to going like four to five times a week, like that's a huge change. And whether that's yoga or that's walking or it's Olympic lifting or whatever it may be all the benefits, it's not just the physical part as, as far as the working out is concerned.

So, so much to that. Yay. Yoga. Yeah. A hundred

DeJah: or even just, you know. Go a hammock. I'll have a good cry in a hammock. Yeah. A hammock will give me a good cry, man. Yep. Just get me the breeze and the air. Nice. Gentle rocking. That's yeah. Yes, a hundred percent. That's like being cradled. Yes. Like, and when I hammock, I like a blanket.

I like to swaddle myself. Yes. Yes. Like, oh, absolutely.

David: iCal said containment plus safety, right? Yes. That's bliss.

Jen: Yes. Sometimes I'll just watch like a sad rom come just to like, yeah. Make for like, I'm like, I just need to release. I need to force myself to cry and hope floats. I hope my go-tos float. Pop in.

Hope floats. Oh really? Steel magnolias. Oh, we'll, still magnolias [00:38:00] done. Mine's six feet apart, five feet apart, six feet, We've talked about like the obviously mental health. We've talked about the trauma piece of it, and I'm, I'm, I think I've told a lot of people about this the first time we met, I asked you once I found out that you were trauma focused therapist are all therapists, this is not the question I was gonna ask, but are all therapists kind of maybe, I don't know.

Trauma, I just feel like trauma generally, if people do start down to a therapy path, there's generally some sort of trauma that pops up. So I feel like there's gotta be a part of that. And mental health training to a certain part

David: so that is one of those like nebulous terms right now that's very popular and there isn't always, like, there are ways you can be like, alright, well I'm trained in this modality, or, I mean, there's this, there are certifications you can go and get. But right now trauma informed is just kind of a really nebulous term, uh, that a lot of people can use.

Mm-hmm. What gets someone into that work is usually their own, their own history. Every trauma therapist I know of every trauma. Yeah. It, you get in [00:39:00] one, you get into this work period because it's touched you in some way. Yeah. Yeah. Like you, someone you love, some like it's been in your world. And every trauma therapy.

I wish I could tell this to all of my clients. Like there are clients I have that I'm like, yeah, Jessica, I didn't, I didn't pull that one from a textbook. I know meet you. You have those moments where you're like, no, this one's coming from experience. Yeah. Yeah. I've been at the stage of the work too. But like there, a lot of us have that background.

And so I think that I would say that's what pulls someone into working with trauma often is our own background. And that what, like, what qualifies someone to say that they're in that space? Yeah. Like I said, that's just a really nebulous term and it's, it's one that's just kind of in choice,

Jen: like choice to be in that space.

Yeah.

David: Pretty. Yeah. Yeah.

Jen: So the question I actually did ask you the first time we met was like, what do you feel, and I dunno if you remember this or not, what do you feel is kind of like the mis the biggest misnomer about, I don't remember exactly how I said it, but about trauma or something like that, or like the mis.

The biggest [00:40:00] misnomer of, of what trauma is or something. Mm-hmm. And your response was, well, I think we, not verbatim, obviously I was not recording you. Even though we are a one party consent state, and I could have, we

David: are, we,

Jen: We're recording

DeJah: you now.

Jen: That's true. And you said something to the effect of, I think the biggest, uh, you know, misnomer, whatever, is that trauma is an isolated incident.

DeJah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That

Jen: we view it as something, one big thing happened to us. Yes. And that's what's caused, that's why now we're facing where we're working through trauma. And that kind of, I never thought because I was under I lived in that misnomer realm. Yeah.

DeJah: Yeah.

Jen: And that is. So true. Or that we, we think of our big ones, right?

Yes. Sexual assault or like, military mm-hmm. Things. And it could be so much smaller things that we don't think about as readily. So I would love for you to know, expand or contribute to that. Sure.

David: So certainly I would say right there, there's this idea that all of us have that trauma is in the event, right?

Trauma is [00:41:00] in the thing. So it's a trauma, big t trauma. If it's a really big thing and if I can point my finger at it and go, here's the incident. Which is really disorienting for people and really distressing for people who have these really ongoing chronic hard experiences. But they can't really point to a singular thing and be like, that happened on April 14th.

DeJah: It was the plane crash. Yeah. Right. It was right. Yeah.

David: Uhhuh. So there's a story I tell sometimes. My very first deployment I was in Afghanistan in 2002. The first ba where the. Folks I was working with, basically all of us went to one big base. It was Bagram. Bagram was still being de mined at the time.

Like there were like minefields from like the Soviets and everything. And, and EOD was out there like doing what we call controlled explosions. So they're blowing stuff up, but everyone's safe. I love that. Yeah.

Jen: I wanna blow shit up, but let people be safe. Right. Be a different sematic, really, baby.

David: And, and so we, we start there and then there's [00:42:00] a few of us and the, the few of us went and met some other people and we are out on like, the border of Pakistan and like, we're out there when something explodes, it's exploding at you.

Right? And so we were getting attacked probably every two to three nights when I got there. No

Jen: biggie. Hmm. No biggie. No biggie.

David: And, and, and it was something that you kind of adapted to.

Over time we started being able to pinpoint which nights we thought attacks might happen or when, and like your sleep patterns change and a lot of, in, in that.

Like I was saying earlier, humans adapt. It's a beautiful thing that we do, right? So I adapted, my nervous system adapted. I learned to respond very quickly. Especially to loud noises. Right? Loud noises are bad.

DeJah: Loud noises. Yes. Sorry. Measure

David: man. And, and so me and at one point in time during the deployment, we'd been down, out by the border for a couple months and me and one other guy who had radio stuff too, we had to come back to Bagram to the big base where they were still blowing stuff up, but everyone is safe to get some [00:43:00] things.

And so we went to go get our things and we get off the plane. Everything's changed in the last few months. People are like saluting each other. Now there it's a whole other world, but they're still blowing things up and people are safe. So we go to lunch, right? And lunch is. This big canvas tent that smells like army and we're just sitting there eating.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Smells like army. Why do I know when it Oh, yeah. Smell. Smell

DeJah: the rugs out.

David: Smells

Jen: like pork brag.

David: So it smells like army in there. We're eating our lunch and all of a sudden something blows up. And me and the guy I went there with who are, are both, we've been on the border for the last several months.

Something blows up. We both grab our guns and we're like standing, we're like, oh, we're having a moment here. And everyone around us kinda starts to laugh a little bit. I think they thought we were new to country and they're like, ah, you know, and I made some smart Alec comment about, must be nice to be someplace where things blow up and you're safe.

Right, right. And trying to like save that. Yeah. I was young. I was like 20 years old. You gotta, protect the [00:44:00] machismo. Yeah, of course. But the reason that happened. Was because I adapted to a condition in my, in my environment that I had to

DeJah: mm-hmm.

David: And when I didn't need the adaptation anymore, I noticed it and I noticed it as a problem and other people noticed it in a particular kind of way.

So when we start to, I'm so glad I'm on the right podcast 'cause I just rambled for like 18 and a half minutes and I'm like, where? Hold on. When I've been in this place where, when we'd start to talk about certain social conditions I should have done my due diligence and looked her name up.

There is a doctor at Duke in our neighborhood right now. Hey, so we've got, uh, the Duke Identity and Diversity Lab. There was another place, 'cause at one point I was looking at my, doing my PhD and the social psych people who I was looking at, and there are some really interesting research going on right now about experiences like racism and inflammation.

Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. Which is the body's natural response to stress and something being wrong. Often that [00:45:00] happens when we're sick. Mm-hmm. It also happens over a prolonged period of stress or trauma. And the physical fear is a

DeJah: trauma.

David: Yes.

DeJah: Mm-hmm.

David: Yeah. Living in a constant state mm-hmm. Of not safe. Right. Right.

Our bodies are like always with the bear. That I was talking about earlier. And there's no, here's the thing is sometimes when the bear is a social or relational condition and we can't put our finger on it or we're not able to get away from it, there's no running or killing the bear. Right? Yeah.

You can't you can't get away from it and you can't kill it either. And so we just stay in this very sympathetically charged state and develop ulcers. Ulcers.

DeJah: I mean, legit. No, we were talking about the digestive system earlier. There's a whole host of physical ailment, not just the like, oh, I get the tightening in my chest.

Right. No, no. You can get physically sick. Well, you're on the nervous system's

Jen: staying so high. Yeah. So cortisol's good, but

David: not

Jen: that

David: level of it. Yes. Right. It's [00:46:00] good until you accomplish the thing that it needed you to, to accomplish. Mm-hmm. And when you can't accomplish that, when that trauma is a little too trauma, that is complex trauma, that is something that's social or relational or in some way part of the environment that's giving us that.

It's a bear. But we can't resolve the, it's a bear, right? That, we come in and we don't feel like we have a trauma history or we feel like there's something wrong with us. Going back to that moralizing piece where it's like, I don't know what's so screwed up with me, why I can't, blah, blah, blah.

Because we're looking for the trauma in the incident, we're looking for, where's the Big T event? Right. That can explain why I am the way I'm,

Jen: yeah. How is it for you as a therapist and, and if you tell someone you've got PTSD. Mm-hmm. Because I'm an open book and when I heard that from my therapist, I had two very distinct, well, I have two very distinct memories of, of how I felt.

And one was validation.

DeJah: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And [00:47:00] the other was shame. And, and to a certain extent, and, and. I guess the relief kind of went with the validation, but also then just like the how, or you know, like how is this PTSD or how am I a statistic now with PTSD? And so to have those two very different, welcome to the club buddy.

Listen, it's, it's not really a club I wanted to join, but fuck it. I'm here.

DeJah: So

Jen: here we queer beer. So it's, and it's such a, to be honest, it's such a mind fuck because I just, the rest of the day I was just me remember just being so not numb, but just quiet and just thinking about, and then I would hit waves of just silent tears.

Mm-hmm. And then waves of, gosh, I'm not crazy. Mm-hmm. You know, like the, the things that I was struggling with are very real. So, I mean, it was just this teeter-totter back and forth. And so how I'd imagine you get responses like that and probably maybe a whole other spectrum of responses. So how. [00:48:00] Do you do that

David: inside out?

Yes.

DeJah: And we, that's where color this comes in. That's where the whole That's right.

David: And I mean, it's such a great model to teach people how to create the space for multiple things to be true at the same time. Yes. Mm-hmm. When I first, I can open up a little bit, mostly because you and your audience are not my clients probably.

So, so I, I've, uh, disability through the va and the first day that I got my VA disability letter, I stood there in the kitchen and bowed my eyes out because I had a lot of internalized stuff about the label of being a disabled veteran.

DeJah: Mm.

David: And so much came up for me.

And in my own mental health journey, I mean, every, like I've said, every trauma therapist is a trauma survivor.

I've done a lot of my own work. Hearing labels like PTSD or this is like, can be super validating, can be like, yeah, I know your job is to help everyone else, but this thing you [00:49:00] went through really was that big. It was that significant. I had a client once who was a counseling student who had a history of anorexia and a few other things, and she had gotten herself through it, but before she had gotten herself into therapy and into her, her program.

And so no one had ever diagnosed her. And she had this sense of like, I went through this traumatic, horrible period in my life, but nobody's ever said, yeah, that was a really big deal. So yeah, it can also be really validating and there can be a lot of shame and there can be a lot of like, who am I now?

Jen: Mm-hmm.

David: What does this mean?

Jen: Where do I go from here? Yeah. Like, how do I heal through this and get to my goal of like.

DeJah: And that's why you'll reach out to David at,

David: so full disclosure, my full reason for agreeing was because, you know, it was a plug for my Now

Jen: yeah, I mean, listen for our, like five listeners, maybe one of them, we become a client. No, I, I just, [00:50:00] I think in all of that, and we're gonna get to the, the. Uh, some levity a little bit here with the rest of our questions that we asked all ask all of our guests.

Okay. But one, I can't thank you enough. I think hopefully for anybody that's listening and, and definitely for the folks in this room, I know that I'm not alone in, in thinking. I don't know what Joe thinks, but you, not

Joe: as much as I wish I thought.

Jen: You're such a wealth of knowledge in this, and the, I think the way that you explain it is just such an educational and you can tell that you're passionate about it.

Mm-hmm. And I love when you can tell from the way that someone speaks about something, how passionate they are about it. Mm-hmm. And I think that very easily and just organically comes across whenever you speak about this. So I can't thank you enough for sharing your time with us and your, your knowledge around the subject that I think a lot of people don't even know is a thing.

DeJah: Yeah.

Jen: You know, and that's, that, that's why I was like, we, we at Deja and I, you know, we have obviously a lot of, we've talked about. Well, we talked about parkways and driveways in our last episode, so, so I was like, let's do something more substantive. Like I was craving something a little more. Sure.

So insert you, you know. Oh, thanks. So, [00:51:00] yeah.

Joe: I had a question.

Jen: Yes. No, I'm just kidding.

Joe: Yikes. I feel like I learned something about trauma. I had not known that it was like a more, like a cumulative thing rather than mm-hmm. Only just a one single time event. Oh yeah. And so I was thinking if they made Inside Out three mm-hmm.

And they cast trauma, oh, which actor should portray trauma? 'cause that would help out a lot of people, I think, to understand. Oh, I get it. So who would be the actor? The Voice for trauma?

David: The Voice for trauma. Oh, that's a really good question. Dang, shoo.

Jen: You

David: need to put down on your questionnaire for your next guest.

Jen: Yeah. Well, you know, well, something that's really cool in that same vein is I've been listening to a diary of a CEO podcast a lot recently, Uhhuh and something cool that now they get like, no offense, like Michelle Obama and Jimmy Fallon, like that's our next guest. I'm kidding. You mean I'm not like Michelle Obama?

Jimmy Fallon level? Not yet. But they, they have the current guest. Leave a question for the next guest. Oh wow. That's fine. Which, so you don't know what question you're [00:52:00] gonna get, but you answer it on air and then like then you would leave a question for the next guest. So maybe, maybe that'd be like season two next year.

We'll roll that out or something. Yeah, expand. Yeah. We'll steal that from, from diary of A-C-I-O-A-C-E-O. And I don't think it's, trademarks asking questions can't be trademarked, right? Sure. Anyway come fight me, bro. I, I, I could ask questions, we could have people ask questions. Yeah. Come

David: on now let's work through that fight response.

Jen: That's awesome, Joe. I'm so glad to hear that you learned something. Who's, who's the

David: actor though? Yeah. Have to like, we have to come up with something. That's a really good question.

DeJah: I don't know why. I just want the voice to be Idriss Elbow. Just so I can hear Iris Elbow. Okay. It's trauma. Deep voice. So trauma like

Jen: the voice has to kind of exhibit the characteristic.

Right?

David: It's a weirdly in my brain. Sneaky though. Went straight to Robin Williams and I, I don't know what that says about me. I wish. Oh my God. You know what I mean? Segue.

DeJah: Segue. 'cause we're rambling. Have you seen the video of Robin Williams comforting the gorilla Coco, who had not smiled in six months, and then he [00:53:00] hung out with Robin Williams and fucking Robin Williams said, angel made the god gorilla laugh.

Of course he did. The most precious, I mean,

David: I'm gonna go home and YouTube that, Brian, that is,

Jen: that's beautiful. I made a good cry. Amazing. Oh gosh. I don't know. First I don't know. I the monster voice you have on your dashboard. Ah, well good.

David: Okay. That's one option.

Jen: No, I, I mean, I know, 'cause I think about the other voices, right?

Like the, I, the angry is. Anger. Well, my gosh, you guys, I'm blanking. Oh yeah,

Joe: I

Jen: remember. Yeah. The anger guy. That's, I trying to remember his name. That's the whole

Joe: jam. He was on the Daily Show. Oh yeah.

DeJah: It's not Lewis Black, is it? I don't,

Joe: yes.

DeJah: Yes. It's, it's, yes. I think my, my brain just wants to

David: go in the opposite direction for some reason with, with trauma and make it something that sounds very, you know, antithetical to,

Jen: yeah.

I dunno. Yeah. Very like calm. That's a good

David: question. That's a really good question.

Jen: Ooh, can I just pick Sam Huon from Outlander. Oh, [00:54:00] Jamie. Yes, Jamie.

I think we're just picking hot guys.

DeJah: We're not even really talking about trauma anymore. And now we're at a DD.

Jen: Yeah, that could be another one. Oh man. Okay, so I'll probably

Joe: get cast by John Ham fricking, John Hams and John Ham.

Jen: Handsome

Joe: devil.

Jen: I don't know, Joe, who you didn't give an answer. Who would Oh, my first Donald Trump.

DeJah: Oh. That would give us some's Beautiful is trauma. It's the most beautiful trauma you've ever experienced. You dunno how big this is. Oh, no. God. Oh, no, no, no, no. It threw up in my mouth a little bit. Oh. So I

Joe: dunno why I think maybe 'cause s is played by somebody from the office. My mind went to Toby from the, to.[00:55:00]

I don't know his real name. Sorry bro. Oh my God. I know he listens. I'm sorry. Yeah, we can only help.

Jen: Uh, I dunno. That's great. I dunno, you know what we're, throw that throw us out there listeners, if you feel like you have a girl, girl, a great Right. Nobody said a girl.

DeJah: No statistics.

Jen: That's probably why all us women did.

Yeah, if you're a listener and you have a great idea of who should voice trauma, there you go. Drop a comment on whatever listening platform or slide into our dms. I guess that always, so never said that before. Okay. So anything else you wanna add to that, David? I know we've just like our eye, have rapid fire throw questions at you, so,

David: oof.

No. Okay. Actually, I, so my second, I, I mentioned the first episode that I listened to for your guys podcast was obviously the dating. The dating one, just because I had to know if I was walking into a trap. Yes. The second one wise was, was the Cheez-It one? Yes or no? Maybe that was the Cheez-It one.

DeJah: Yeah, that was the same. There was a

David: right when I learned that the [00:56:00] Cheez-Its are made carrot, like the, the mothership is here. Yes. That's a great episode. So, so like, if y'all read anything in WRIL tomorrow about someone who broke in and was captured, passed out in a vat, it was not you of duos mind your business mind, your business business like.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That is absolutely going to happen. Next possible

DeJah: deniability. Oh yes. Talk about some sematic trauma response hams of

David: Jesus. Yes. She's fight or flight, rest and digest. It's sympathetic. It's sympathetic. Doing it all something right? Yeah. Doing it all.

DeJah: I'm just gonna eat my feelings in Cheez-Its,

Jen: yeah.

I, I feel like it's been, it hasn't been directly said, but part of you know, we asked like, what you wanna ramble about. We, we've talked about a lot of the front half of this, but the end of it is embracing our full humanity as a path toward mm-hmm. Mental health.

DeJah: Yeah.

Jen: And I think it's kind of been the overriding theme in, in, in what you've said and what you've expressed and, and how we aren't separate compartments.

Yes, yes. You know, within and outside. But is there anything else that you wanna add to, just to that statement piece? And no pressure. You don't have to, I [00:57:00] just don't wanna not give you the opportunity.

David: No, no, no. I, and like, that was a lot of stuff I just kind of like, through huge topics we could spend time on, on any one of 'em.

And I don't know the degree to which I'm, it's okay for me to like, include a soapbox in this. But I, I think that during pride month especially

DeJah: mm-hmm.

David: During, we've talked a little bit about how social conditions also create and contribute to trauma. I think it's important to recognize that some of us are even less able to really embrace all of ourselves and accept and have all of ourselves be safe and Okay socially.

Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Especially

DeJah: right now. I can double down. I felt a small amount of trauma when I just happened to go out shopping and realize that, Hmm, nobody will put up a rainbow anymore. We can't have that anywhere anymore. Right. I expected every year my joyful going out in June, my birthday month, that they're my beautiful rainbows everywhere.

Yeah. And [00:58:00] I should be able to find them. No. Does that like hurt my heart? Michael's has a whole little section of pride. Pride gear. No more Target, no more Walmart, no more all gone, gone. Yeah.

David: It's, I, I mean it's, it's overly simplistic to say all pathology is because blank. All mental illnesses because this all of our traumas.

I don't like that. But that said from both the humanistic and somatic space, I would say that there is a lot of human suffering. And our ability to adat after we've had to adapt to something that was very traumatic, that we got through the best way we could. That is really being able to come in contact with who we are as humans fully and be able to accept all those parts and be able to integrate all the stuff that we are right at all these different levels.

And being a human can be ridiculous. Yes, it can be absolutely silly at times. It is a divinely comedic and complex sacred thing. And complex and it's ridiculous. [00:59:00] And our ability to be with our own humanity. Facilitates our ability to be with others, humanity and sit with them while I heal, whether we're getting paid to do that or not.

Some of us just felt, Hey man, I was jumping outta airplanes for like 20 years. It was actually not 20 of, it was only like 15 of the 20, but Right. This is much easier on the joints. But

DeJah: yeah,

David: you know, our ability to, to really sit with our own humanity and I would say that facilitates our ability to sit with the humanity of others.

And I think that's really, really important for us at a broader level, especially right now.

Jen: Oh yeah. Beautifully said. I love that. A hundred I. Yes. Which you know of. So of all the, because we have to

DeJah: be here for each other right now, guys, if we need to hold hands in Kumbaya before we all leave, we can. Yeah.

Jen: Yeah. And I do believe that there was, that a bass guitar that's out in the waiting area there, Joe. So if you need to slap at a bass at a bass,

David: you know, you trying to put me to work, hold up the crap.

Jen: No, I love that. It's beautifully said. I think it also reiterates [01:00:00] sometimes in, in, when Deja and I get on our platforms of how we hate certain individuals that have been spoken about Cheeto in chief, that you know, the intolerance of others comes from internal insecurities.

Yes. And intrinsic Sit with our own, confidently. With our own human. Human literally

David: could be a whole other podcast episode. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jen: Well, we'll just have to have you back, Dan. No, no, no, no.

David: There's one more question I get to answer. Oh,

Jen: you, oh, we're not done my, okay. Alright. We're not letting go

DeJah: without.

David: Okay.

Jen: Yeah.

DeJah: We haven't even, yeah, we haven't gotten to the easy one. We're now at the fun part. Okay. You, we may decompress into levity now. Alright, well, well,

David: there's, there's one I've, I've gotta put my hat in the ring there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because I really feel strongly about it. Yes. Yeah. Well, I think this,

Jen: I, yeah,

David: it's coming.

Okay. Yeah.

Jen: All right. Okay. Is a hot dog a sandwich?

David: It's a taco. A hot dog is not a sandwich. It all depends on how the bread relates to the meat. A hot dog is not a sandwich, it's a taco. I don't make the rules. I'm just the messenger. I'm just [01:01:00] having arm feelings. I love day's a moment.

Jen: You little arm feelings over here.

Not by me. I don't like it. I still respect you. You're at where you're at in the process, so entitled and you don't have to have arrived

David: at the answers or

Jen: I never will. I have my answer and I'm securely confident in it. Good. I I want that for you.

David: Yes. Yes. I love how we're all using therapy. Speak. Just That's right.

You're wrong.

Jen: I loved in the, in the last episode with our guest Chris, whenever, since he was an attorney and you just fucking hit the serious music for his debate. It was great. And the way he said hotdog. Did you I, when we were listening to that, Tia and I, 'cause we do, I don't know. We, I think we spend more time together than we do a part.

Oh my God. We, uh, were riding together whenever the episode aired and the way he was saying hotdog was just so weird. Hotdog.

DeJah: Yeah. But so, so

Jen: Topher, if you're listening, our sweet

DeJah: Topher had know, uh, he was at the end of his bev, but thank you. Thank you [01:02:00] for agreeing with me, kind gentlemen. Appreciate you. Certainly.

Jen: Whatever. Kick rocks. David.

David: Gotta spread the good news.

Jen: Yes. I, I just read your answer for the next one. And I love this 'cause there's, there's an, an addition to it, but what's the, and this may have changed since you filled this out, but what's the last song that got stuck in your head?

David: Oh, gosh, that's a really good question.

Jen: Do you remember what you put here? Yeah, I

David: think, I think I put, because hey, jealousy. Mm-hmm. Hey, jealousy was one of 'em.

DeJah: Oh, that's a good song.

David: There, there's a dating app tie into that one, but it's its own tangent. But there's, I don't, like, sometimes I think those prompts just like ask you, there was a like, together we could prompt on the, the dating app thing.

Yeah. Yeah. And it just felt very, I was like, this absolutely needs a silly answer. So I responded right around this town, let the cops chase us a rabbit. I don't know what the other one was. There was probably another one, but I know you,

Jen: you only put one. Okay. But you put hey, jealousy by the gin blossoms, which is.

Pretty cool because several episodes ago we had a musician, the first musician in the studio on the podcast, and he talked [01:03:00] about, I think his first concert was the Jen Blossoms. Right? Yep. So I tagged them on the Instagram post and they liked my Instagram post. Wow. And now I'm basically a celebrity. I know you're a big deal.

I know. Pretty much. I know. Pretty much. So I'm gonna do it again. Awesome.

DeJah: Great. Do it.

Jen: Love

DeJah: it.

Jen: Love it. Very cool. And now that song's gonna be stuck in my head. I'm gonna be completely honest. I wish we could play it, but dumb copyright laws don't allow us to. Feel free to sing it. David, if you wanna No, no.

David: How come our listenership dropped to zero? That's weird. How did

Jen: Joe just

David: remove

Jen: us

David: from all

Jen: platforms? What's happening here? Okay. Last question on the questionnaire here. What is the last thing that made you go Hmm. and you said which kind of Yeah, which kind of, Hmm. There's a ty anything.

David: I mean, there's a, there's like a, Hmm.

True. Right? And there's like a, like a genuine like,

Mm-hmm. And then there's the [01:04:00] like, Hmm. True. True facts. Right?

Jen: I feel like,

David: tell me, you a therapist without telling me you're a therapist, and you just

Jen: dissected the different ways to say, Hmm.

David: I have whole sentences, dialogues about what my clients are saying without really ever using words.

Yeah. Fair. Not. I'm just like, Hmm,

Joe: that's, but they all sounded the same. 'cause we're audio only, let me help the listener out. The first time he said, Hmm. He looked like Mr. Belvedere, who was disappointed in one of the children that were misbehaving. The second time. He said, Hmm. It was as if he just received knowledge of something and the third time he said, Hmm.

It looked like one of the three stooges who was hiding something behind his back.

Jen: Did we just become a D compliant?

Amazing. Excellent. Nicely done. Oh gosh. Nicely done. Oh gosh. Wow. That brings me into the, to the end [01:05:00] of the formal part of this. I made it through the questionnaires. Yes. Oh my gosh, man. Face hurts. Of course. Deja any questions, comments, things?

DeJah: Thank you for what you do. Uh, keep being a good example. So more men come into the field.

Just a little side note that all kids that go into foster care need therapists and there are very few men out there to help our boys and so diamonds in the rough. Yeah. So I you are appreciate male somatic there four us. Yeah. Uh, but, so yeah. Yeah.

Jen: Just,

DeJah: uh, keep

Jen: fighting the

DeJah: good fight and thank you.

Jen: Thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you. And, and I mean, we'd be remiss to ask if. People are, if they have heard this and they're just so inspired, they're like him. I want to work with him. Yes. How does someone get in contact with you for services?

David: Oh goodness. Okay. You just scream him

Jen: at Sky.

David: That's worked before for a few of my, some of my clients.

No. So I have a, my website is resonance therapy group.com. I'm on the socials. [01:06:00] I like, I need to increase my social media footprint, so don't judge me If you know, go onto Instagram or Blue Sky or Facebook and there's like three posts on there. I'm working on it. What's blue

Jen: sky? What is Blue sky?

Blue sky. Yeah.

David: Blue Sky is like the alternative to Twitter. Oh

Jen: yeah, I don't

David: have Twitter. That's like, I've never had Twitter, to be honest. I left Twitter and I feel so

DeJah: happy. I wasn't the only one that didn't know

David: I'm, I'm checking it, like people are moving that way. So I was like, okay, well, you know, maybe there's, you know. Now are you on the TikTok

Jen: as well?

David: I am on the ticket. Well, so it's a fuzzy line 'cause it's, it's me personally, it's David Hughes, but it's like mostly just me talking about mental health stuff, honestly.

Lots of,

Jen: listen, TikTok needs that. Alright, so it's not a Yeah, we need, well he needs a lot of things, but it definitely needs, uh, it needs some, some substantive good things out there as well.

David: But yeah, resonance therapy. Excellent. Perfect. Out there.

Jen: Awesome. And we'll of course, uh, tag you in the posts [01:07:00] whenever they come out, so, you can find him that way as well.

So again, David, thank you so much for sharing your time, your talents, your thoughts, your dare I say expertise, your passion your history, your journey. Yeah, and I mean.

David: Thank you for having me on and uh, giving me a space to ramble.

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Close this out, buddy. You always do it.

David: Appreciate it,

DeJah: Trauma comes in all different kinds of forms and the reality is that you need to love yourself and you need to seek out the ability to have the most peace in your life. And qualified professionals, like the individual we just talked to today, can actually find that for you and help you get there.

Keep rambling.

[01:08:00]